Breathe Through the Grief: Nature, Cold Water, and Becoming Unstuck

What does grief feel like when the person who gave your life direction disappears without warning?

In this episode of the Solo Dad Podcast, Matt talks with golf professional, widower, father, yoga teacher, and Wim Hof Method practitioner Kevin Chin about the sudden death of his wife, Terry, and the tools that helped him survive, rebuild, and become unstuck.

Kevin and Terry met through Couchsurfing before apps like Airbnb had become part of everyday life. Kevin was traveling through Florida to play in golf tournaments and hoped to make his trip less lonely. Terry responded to his message, offered him a place to stay, and the two connected almost immediately.

Within weeks, they had adopted a dog. From that first meeting, they were together for the rest of Terry’s life.

They married in 2015, welcomed their son, Tommy, in 2016, and were building their first home when Terry suffered a sudden brain aneurysm and died in 2018. Tommy was only one year old.

Kevin shares the disorientation of those first days: the hospital, life support, organ donation, grief fog, an inability to enjoy food, extreme weight loss, panic indoors, and the constant physical need to sigh and take deep breaths.

A counselor gave him language that stayed with him: people grieve in character.

For Kevin, that meant returning to nature.

He walked outside when being indoors felt unbearable. He sought out wilderness, yoga, meditation, grief groups, therapy, breathwork, and eventually the Wim Hof Method. The combination of breathing exercises, cold exposure, and intentionally entering difficult situations gave Kevin a way to find stillness and remain present.

Kevin does not suggest that grief disappeared. Instead, he describes learning how to participate with it.

He talks about taking life breath by breath, recognizing grief anniversaries in his son, writing meaning into difficult experiences, and accepting that he cannot fully explain why everything happens. Sometimes, as in the old story of the farmer and the horse, all we can say is: “Maybe.”

Through the CLIMB framework, Kevin’s journey reflects:

Courage: Facing grief, intense emotions, the wilderness, cold water, and difficult internal experiences rather than continually avoiding them.

Learning: Discovering how breath, the body, grief fog, physical health, and the nervous system are interconnected.

Integration: Continuing his relationship with Terry through gratitude, memory, parenting, and the person he has become.

Movement: Walking in nature, practicing yoga, teaching golf, cold-water immersion, breathwork, and deliberately doing difficult things.

Building and Belonging: Accepting support from family, counselors, grief groups, friends, his community, and Terry’s mother.

Kevin also speaks candidly about grief and organ donation, the complexity of support groups, the secondary losses that follow the death of a spouse, and losing the person who served as his social connection, compass, sail, and direction.

His advice to people in early grief is practical: take care of your body. Eat when you can. Be careful with alcohol. Breathe. Make one small, healthy choice and allow it to create a snowball effect.

Most importantly, Kevin wants people to understand that the capacity to survive hard things is already within them.

You are stronger than you can imagine.

Ready for more than just listening? Explore the CLIMB framework and support options at https://solodad.life/

Transcript

Kevin 0:00

Take care of yourself because everything's so tied together physically. So make those good decisions, and there's this snowball effect that can happen.

Matt 0:23

Welcome to the Solo Dad Podcast, where we hold space and gather for widowers to share heartfelt, honest, and open stories of grief. Their insights on navigating the journey after the death of their partner or spouse, loss, healing, and finding their way back to living again. I'm Matt Bradley, your host, and I am honored to join you as we explore the complexities of grief, the challenges of solo parenting, and the struggles of getting back to living, and maybe even some adventures of finding love again. Each episode we'll sit down with courageous dads who are bravely sharing their experiences, insights, and lessons learned along the way on this journey, sharing how grief has impacted them, their children, and their lives. We might have a crosstalk conversation with widows and widowers sharing their experiences, the similarities and the differences in grief and being a solo parent. Occasionally we'll have grief experts on to dive deeper into the understanding of grief and healing. So whether you're a solo dad or solo mom or a friend of a solo parent, or you're wanting to just understand more about this journey, you're in the right place. Don't forget to visit our website at solo dad.life for more resources, episode updates, and to connect with our growing community. You can follow us on all the social media platforms, find our group on Facebook, look for us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and on the YouTube page. On YouTube, you can find more content and some behind the scenes moments. Just search the Solo Dad Podcast. And remember, don't forget to subscribe. Lastly, if you've enjoyed what you've heard or found it helpful or insightful, we would appreciate your support. Head on over to buymeacoffee.com slash the Solo Dad Podcast to help keep the show running and fuel our mission of supporting solo dads everywhere and giving them a space to have open and honest conversations. Thank you so much for being here. And let's dive into today's conversation. Hey everybody, welcome back to another Solo Dad Podcast Conversation. I know my editor hates that I do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I am always humbled and honored and grateful for those solo dads and soon coming solo moms that take time out of their busy day to hold this space and have this conversation about how they wound up here. So that thanks today goes to Kevin. Kevin, I appreciate you being here. I'm kicking off season five with a little bit different opening. And I think for you, what I want to ask you real quick is what's one thing unexpectedly, because you're almost the same distance out as I am from the event, that's been unexpectedly hard lately, and what helped even a little with it? Something unexpectedly hard? Yeah, with grief. Like, has there been something that because you're about seven years like me?

Kevin 3:29

Um just eight uh recently.

Matt 3:32

Eight. Is there been something that just kind of that we call them grieve what grief waves that kind of hit you on the side where you're like, I didn't see that come in? Or yeah, sure.

Kevin 3:40

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. No, no, no, I definitely know what you're talking about. Uh but no, I mean there's not like the don't don't get me wrong. Um uh I I was I kind of set aside time to to kind of in a way, um well, it's kind of built into what I'm doing right now. So like I mean, a lot of the stuff that I that I do now, uh I give myself plenty of of time, like alone time, like meditation time, like um, and so you know, she's a she's a big part of that. So, you know, I I I guess you could say the emotions um are more prevalent typically then, but nothing like unexpected. I mean, you know, my son now, he just turned 10. Um, and she passed suddenly uh just before his birthday. So he correlates uh his birthday a lot with um with his mom being dead. And um so like he'll he he had I don't know, maybe like three or four nights of sleep where you know he was crying before before bed. And um, but it was kind of like expected, it happens pretty much on a yearly, um, right about this time.

Matt 4:59

Sure.

Kevin 5:00

Um, and so I mean it it's I don't know. I guess it's not my first Yoda um uh rodeo rodeo around the earth, uh around the sun, I guess.

Matt 5:10

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 5:11

And you know, it's like your body kind of remembers it a little bit. You're uh even though all my cells have have died off and regenerated. So um, so there's uh there's there's no physical um I guess self that's left from uh when she was alive. Right. Um you know, I don't know if you've heard that, but like seven years, like every every cell has has died and regenerated, yeah. So that was kind of like a thing for me. Like when when that seven year, like last year, I was kind of like, wow, this is there's no part of me that that physically uh knows her. You know, it was it was a little bit of a thing.

Matt 5:48

We'll dive into that in a minute. What I what I really like actually, even though you were kind of going, well, unexpected but spected, right? Uh, I had someone on, you'll probably actually you will proceed it. His quote that he used to help him through Greece is he just participated with it, which I mean, I'm gonna we're gonna definitely get into some of the things you do with, like you said, uh meditation, the Wim Hof stuff that I think is amazing. Um, I'm a little scared to do, to be honest with you, but um anyway, uh just cold. Um, but I think there's something about it kind of lynches in and it hooks on to the idea that fortunately, unfortunately, not fortunately, um, our society really struggles to witness well, it witness and witness and express our grief, right? And so we almost don't know how to participate. Like, we know how to be happy, we know how to be sad, right? People know how to handle that, but like grieving is something people go, like, well, how do I participate with this? How do I how do I give Kevin space to do it? How does he make time to do it? There's someone else, and I you you touched on something where there is a it's again, and it's everyone's gonna have a different path on this. There is a suggestion that I've heard many times. I don't think it comes up very often with females, so I'm gonna have to think about that for a minute. But there is there is the suggestion of like you're gonna block off 10 minutes of time a day for parenting and grieve the heck out of it, right? Like you go and put on a put on a playlist. Is that something you did? Did you uh I mean you're almost I didn't realize until I was reading your intake form, you and I are almost almost on the exact same timeline because my my wife died in 2018. Um did you did you literally set time aside to be like I'm just gonna be grievy as possible early on? I mean, you're dealing with the one-year-old like I was, like, I don't know if you know this, but they're a handful. So what was that first? We'll go like iteration into well, actually, yeah, what was that like? What was like what did that what did that exercise look like? And then let's go down the other practices you have come into, um, partly for your own mental health and well-being and longevity, but I'm assuming grief, grief probably took you down that path. So what was that like?

Kevin 7:56

Yeah, it definitely. Well, it's hard for me to to it's a theoretical, because like you know, Terry died. That was my wife. Um uh Terry, Terry died, um, and I am how I am now. Um it through like all of our experiences, which are are unique and different, but um, I don't know what I would have been like uh if I would have found, say, this method if Terry was alive. I'm not sure. You know, obviously it's it's a theoretical situation. So um I don't spend too much energy. Uh I I can tell you my best guess, and these the certain things were catalysts, but I can I I think to your question about like carving out time, um look, early on, it's it's living, you know, it was it was just I I gotta I gotta live. You know, I mean, like when when Terry passed, uh, thank goodness my son was um he was at the babysitters because she had a brain aneurysm, so it was sudden. And um so sh he he stayed with the babysitters for a couple of days. Um because you know, I had to go to the hospital, we were at the hospital and we were there all night, and uh the babysitter was like great to uh let him stay there. Um and uh I don't know. I I it's a hard for me to remember exactly, but he stayed there a few nights. So I went maybe two, maybe two nights, um, if I recall correctly. Um but when he came back, you know, you still had to feed him and bathe him and do all the all the stuff that just had to be done. So it was um, you know, you're just trying to live. And I remember one of the things early on, it's kind of interesting. Um, I did I did everything under the sun that I could think of. Um, you know, therapy and books and groups, and one of the things that what one of my counselors said that I think is uh was was very insightful was that from her experience, people grieve in character.

Matt 10:03

And wait, wait, hold say that say that again. I like this. I think I I like where this is going.

Kevin 10:08

People like people grie grieve in character.

Matt 10:11

Uh-huh. Go on.

Kevin 10:13

So um for me, my character is I like nature. I that's in part why um I chose my my profession. Um, I could be outside. Uh whether I it was whether it was a knowingly a knowing choice or just it just happened that way. Um, yeah, I I I love to be outside. And after Terry died, being outside was like an I I got claustrophobic, like extraordinarily claustrophobic indoors. Oh yeah. I mean, I remember I there was a hotel and the doors were on the inside, you know, it's like you go into a hotel and you know, you you go up to your floor and you go to your room, and and I I got up to the floor and I just had like a panic attack. I was like, I can't be here. I I I I gotta be uh outside, you know, as as close to outside as possible. I used to just be able to open my door and go outside rather than open my door and be in a hallway. Um, and so I was just very aware that um some of the things I did was I would be outside. I'd go for a walk in nature quite a bit. That was kind of like I just had to, and sometimes just drop everything, just like I gotta go walk, I just gotta go walk. And early on, also when when Terry was, even though she never came back um uh lucidly, she was that we kept her body alive for the um organ donation, but she she was never she was never aware. And so we were at the hospital, and I just remember, you know, people say like take it day by day. I had to take it breath by breath, and it was the deepest, most conscious, and you you you might even be able to relate to this. I think a lot of the your listeners will be able to relate to this. You might find yourself sighing all the time, which I know I didn't know true.

Matt 12:06

Oh my gosh, right? Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 12:08

The press is especially early on, especially early on, constantly sighing, like and people later on. I'd still sigh, I still do, but um uh I mean I think you know it's just part of being a human, you sigh. But um, a lot of times I'll I'll tell people, I'm like, you know, sometimes when I'm sighing, it's it's because of Terry, like I um it's just a little like I kind of need it that moment. Um, and so I didn't realize how closely tied the breath was to um my being able to function and live and for my nervous system to calm down because I'd be just so so anxious. And um, I mean, that was in part the the claustrophobia, like you know, if you have like a panic attack or something, which a lot of this claustrophobia is like panic attack, um, you know, you'll you'll hear like it's pretty common, I think. You know, just you gotta breathe, count to 10, all these different exercises to get you to really calm down.

Matt 13:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 13:06

Yep, yeah. Well, it's you're so you're activating your parasympathetic nervous system, your rest and digest. It's also tied to the breath. And this is starting to get into my whim stuff. I love it. Um, it's it's been such a wonderful few years with that. Um so being in nature, the breath, uh, those were like two things that I didn't realize, but later on when I found Wim, those are uh two of his pillars are the cold exposure, which is really tied to nature. And I felt like, and I and we'll we'll get more into this, but I felt like when I found his method, it was um it was like an injection of nature. It was like, what's more natural than going into a frozen body of water in the wintertime? Like you're so tied to nature. And that was one of my uh, like my counselor said, grieving in character. Nature was what I needed. I knew it, I didn't realize it so much, but nature and the breath. And two of Wim's pillars are uh uh cold exposure and breath work. Um, the other, the other pillar is really just it's they call it mindset. Early on, they called it um commitment, commitment slash mindset.

Matt 14:20

Okay.

Kevin 14:21

And so when I first started the the the method, it was um I kind of felt like that third pillar was just like you obviously have to do it, you know, like cold exposure mindset, uh cold exposure breath work, and obviously you have to do it for it to work. And that's so early. You can't you can't fake it.

Matt 14:39

Yeah, you can't one of those things, yeah.

Kevin 14:41

Yeah, oh 100%.

Matt 14:42

Yeah, like fake going into cold.

Kevin 14:44

Yeah, you can't when you're in the cold water, it is it is unbelievable. It's like I could say go to the gym and not really work out or not really try, but you're in cold water, you whoo there's no faking. You're there. I want it never gets it never gets easy. That's I do it almost every day. It's crazy.

Matt 15:02

It's like it's it's like you're running, it's like you're running on a treadmill for the first time every time, right? It's like you never it never gets easier, right?

Kevin 15:09

Yeah, I mean, it's you could get some familiarity or something, and you kind of know what's coming. And one of the things that can be helpful is that you know what's coming, but you kind of also know what it's gonna be like afterwards. So you have this, and it makes it a little bit easier. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of cool. It's like, yeah, it really is.

Matt 15:25

Like, um, you know, you know you're not gonna be cold forever, which is kind of interesting about grief as well. You're not it's not gonna be this way forever, right? I love the quote, this too shall pass. Oh man, yeah, whether good or bad, this too shall pass, right?

Kevin 15:36

Everything, everything is impermanence, man. Everything, yeah. So that's that's uh that's a helpful thing. I mean, um, and the breath helps me along with that.

Matt 15:46

I like all of this. I love the big side, man. I I rem I gosh, it's funny you bring that up. The person that was around that helped me a bunch because she was living with me was my mom, and there there's a point in a moment where I like I said something like I'm tired, and my mom's widowed as well, uh, from when my dad passed away 30 plus years ago. But um, she's like, Oh, go take a nap, I'll watch the little one. And I realized I said something like I'm a tired that sleep can't fix. And there's something about like the breathing where like you sigh, you're sighing it out, right? You're like, huh. Yep, right. And then even with your little ones, I don't know if your buddy did this, and I want to I want to come back, I want to give some space for Terry and you for a second. But I don't know if did your little guy ever do the whole um like, oh, you miss mama? I almost had a look for a few years on my face where even my three-year-old would be like, You miss mama, and I'm like, Yeah, like could have been folded laundry, right? So yeah, yeah, so let's real quick. I don't want to, I don't look, you mentioned what happened, but real quick, and I I love your I love on the forum how you met your uh how you met Terry. Just real quick, few, few, a few moments of how did uh Kevin and Terry become an us, and then how did you become a family? And then you did mention the brain and yours. I'm just if you want to share that little journey with us, um that'd be great. And we'll come back to the the exercise and stuff. I love this.

Kevin 17:01

Yeah, so um it's funny because Terry loved this story and she told it so much better than I do. So um I'll I'll give it a shot. Um and it's really nice to talk about. It's um you're not I don't talk about like how we met too often uh anymore. Um but so early 2007. Um I uh I'm a golf pro and I was down in Florida playing in some mini tour events, and I had done that a couple of years before. I want to say maybe 05, I think, or maybe earlier. No, it was earlier. I think it was 2002. So 2002 or 2003, somewhere in there, I was I played in some mini tour events and it was a great experience. I loved it, but it was an extremely lonely experience. And for that time of my life and my age, I was just so social. I just I felt I wasn't comfortable being that much alone. Um so it's kind of like almost a month. What I did was I um that first time around in in um let's just say 2002, um, which actually I can think about it, it might be 2003. Um it was yeah, right around there. I lived out of a tent. I I just I just put a tent up in um uh at an RV place in Ocala, Florida. And um, yeah, I I called up the RV place and I said, Do you guys have campgrounds? He said, No. And I said, Do you mind if I put my tent up there? And he said, Yeah, sure, whatever. It was like 10 bucks a night or something like that. And so they had showers and facilities and everything. Yeah, it's perfect. Um, of course, all of the people there thought I was a little crazy until guy guy sleeping with his golf clubs.

Matt 18:41

That's totally normal.

Kevin 18:42

Yeah, I've been skipping around the co and I had I had my guitar and my golf clubs and just hanging out. Yeah, it was great. Um, I think it was maybe after three or four weeks, uh, this wonderful gentleman came up to me and um he said, I see what's going on here. These guys think you're weird. Let me go introduce you. And he introduced himself. We got to know each other a little bit, and then he introduced me to everyone. And then like the last week or two was fantastic because I was just so friendly with everybody. It was great.

Matt 19:09

That's wonderful.

Kevin 19:11

It was so that that was a fun story. But anyhow, I was kind of lonely and I was going back down to Florida again, and I didn't want to have I wanted to have a different experience. So it wasn't I didn't want to have that experience again. I was I wanted to have a different experience. And um, so I I joined this website called Couch Surfing. And uh this was pre-Airbnb. Um, and it was about people like-minded travelers who like to get together, they had meetups and hangouts, and sometimes you'd have a place to crash, um, you know, hence couch surfing. Yeah, and um I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was on that website and I found Terry, and uh in her profile, she was talking about how she was in the transition to moving up to New York. And um, so I thought, um, well, whatever. I reached out to a bunch of people in that area and she replied. And so I'm like perfect. And one of the connections too was um I liked yoga and uh she did too. And uh so we we we we met on on that that that app. Uh she or well, I guess it was pre-app, I think. This was through the internet, but uh um she was going, she had just turned 30 and she had uh celebrated that with her friend in Europe, couch surfing. She had a great experience, and you know, I felt like okay, I can I can meet someone, they can, you know, we can uh hang out and she can introduce me to other people, just be more social. Yeah. And we hit it off big time. I mean, crazy. Like just it was fantastic. Um and so I I she she uh she had a couch. I I I ended up staying with her. Uh so we were like from day one together for the rest of her life.

Matt 21:00

Wow.

Kevin 21:00

Um yeah, we got a dog after like a it was maybe a week or two.

Matt 21:07

Hey Kevin and Terry, how committed are you? Well, we got a dog. I mean, that's well past the plan, buddy.

Kevin 21:11

I mean, you really said um she was planning on moving up to New York, she was gonna actually uh move in with a friend, um and it's such an interesting, funny story, and I really should carve out some time for it later, but I can get long-winded. You're good. He actually lives upstairs with me now.

Matt 21:31

And wow, full circle.

Kevin 21:33

Wow. Well, you want to know something crazy, crazy. Well, I'll ruin the punchline later, but she he uh he he lost his wife the same day that Terry died.

Matt 21:44

Okay, we're gonna have yeah, okay, wow.

Kevin 21:48

And hers was yeah, hers was a a cancer, a long drawn out thing. And honestly, I didn't know about it, even though we were still close, he didn't share that journey that he was having. didn't you know like he he was doing that kind of to his personality, he was doing that more in quiet, like they were just dealing with it themselves. Sure. And so respectfully. Yeah, yeah. So when I reached out to him and I told him what happened to Terry, he said, I I can't I can't come up to see you guys. I don't, I don't, uh I'm just I can't do it right now. And I at the time I took that as fine because you know, people deal with death differently, you know. So I I had no problem with that. Um, that he couldn't he couldn't make it up to to see Terry before we um took her off life support. And I didn't know about his wife dying, and then later on he told me, yeah, it's crazy, man. It's crazy. And later on he told me um that I wasn't sure if this story was gonna come up, but it's hard not to. It's it's an amazing story. So she so he um he called me and then told me, and it was just like this surreal thing. Because I I I it was the loneliest time of my life, and you know, to be sharing it with such a close friend, uh I didn't, and we still kind of we're like a sitcom. I mean, he lives upstairs, I have a two-family house.

Matt 23:09

Yeah, so it's that's I know that that got me sidetracked in how I met Terry my really but what a what a beautiful, what a what a sad but beautiful wow, universe, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, wow synchronicity, universe.

Kevin 23:25

And that that is a point I think that's really important that I like to relay to your readers is that you're looked after somehow. There's something, and it it's definitely inside there's something, but I think that there's synchronicity that uh maybe that inner something projects it to other people or something, but I I don't know what you want to call it, but I I feel more looked after than than I did before.

Matt 23:49

Yeah.

Kevin 23:50

Um, before Terry's death. I I I felt so alone. I I I put so much on Terry, like she he she I I was very needy. Uh she was um I just was in in a lot of ways, just didn't didn't really know a lot about life. Like obviously, this this teaches you so much. There's so much self-reflection and yeah stuff. And so so Justin was the biggest reason that Terry was moving up to New York because she had a place to stay, and uh he was also um uh he was running a hotel, and so she had a place to work, and it was like self a house and super cool place, super cool guy, um uh super cool job, famous people hanging around and stuff. It was like this really cool thing that was lining up for, but then I kind of threw a kink into it, and um so when she moved up to New York, you know, we looked into going back down to the city, and I worked up in Westchester, which is a suburb of the city. And um so she uh we decided to move up closer to my work, and uh she got something to do. She worked up here. Um, but he was the catalyst for that change. And I think it was thank goodness, because you know, it could be a lot of pressure moving up to someone else's life, uh, but it wasn't like that. It was like she was already planning on it, she was already midway through her move. And when I was down in Florida, um I was planning on coming back up to New York maybe about the end of February. And um, because you know, it's even though I I could I could live relatively cheap, it's still expensive playing in all these golf tournaments, and uh and I wasn't exactly making money in these tournaments. So so so um uh so I I I told her like if she was cool to to let me stay with her, I could help her move up in um, I guess it was I want to say the end of March that we moved up. And um so that's that's kind of how it started.

Matt 26:01

Yeah.

Kevin 26:02

Um and we were uh so we were together, that was 2007, and we got married in in 2015, had Tommy, Tommy in 2016, and she died in 2018.

Matt 26:15

So um you are besides the meeting, that's all my wife and I were together four years, 300 and some odd days, just inside of five years. We met, married, had a kid, cancer death. Now your your time with her is a little, but like the timing, like we got married in 2016, like that's crazy, man. Had a kid, it's 13 months old. Wow.

Kevin 26:35

Um I also the throughout the I I I met another guy, and our timeline was insanely similar. Um, and I mean there was like her birthday, the and when her her my my um father-in-law died, um, and it was like father-in-law died, birthday, um uh her death. It was like this lineup of things that happened in the same order, and it was the craziest thing. Um yeah, but he was like, I want to say maybe three years. Um, his loss was like three years before mine, but chronological order of how things went down between the death of her dad and her birthday and then her death. Um, yeah, because she had lost she lost her dad uh the month before. Oh god. So my poor my poor mother-in-law, man, only daughter and uh husband of 15 years. Oh, another thing, man. And her yeah, she stayed down in Florida, uh, even though we had planned on moving her up here because we were in the middle of I'm I know I'm all over the place, but we were in the middle of when she died, we were in the middle of buying our first house. Okay, we were in contract, oh geez, and it's the two-family house. So she was gonna move in. Um, but then then uh Terry died, and so she moved in with her brother, and her brother died like I don't know, it was a year later. Oh, it was like crazy, and then she eventually then she decided to come up.

Matt 28:02

But wow, so um what that man, you're not kidding. There's like five different like five different routes we could go with that. A real yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, sorry, no, no, no, no. This is the podcast thing is new to me. No, no, this is this is this is what do we do. The editor can figure stuff out too. But I I don't know why when you were talking in the back of my head, and you're talking about the universe looks out for us. Um, I love that by the way. The other thing I was like, there's all these uh you could say dominoes being set up so that when it all happened, all lined itself up. I was I was also thinking like seeds planted, right? Like not that I not that I'd wish that Justin's wife died from cancer or whatever, but and the fact that you got a two-household house rather than the other one you could have picked. Like I go back to when my wife and I chose the house that we bought outside of Chicago in the suburbs called Elmhurst. There was no, I mean, flip a coin. The houses we're looking at were basically well the same, right? But the one we wound up, the community around well, I mean, we'd only live there less than a year when she was diagnosed. Um and like the community was just unbelievable, unreal. Yeah, same with like could not have landed in a better spot for the most terrible situation possible. So it's weird how that it's it's it weird, interesting, profound. Um, makes you sit and and ponder the deeper meaning of everything for sure. Um, so I just want to I wanna I so uh Can I speak to the community thing? And then I'll get back to no no go for it. Please.

Kevin 29:36

And this is this is not to uh toot my own horn, but um, I hope people don't take it that way. But uh the town after Terry's death, very much, even though they didn't say it was because of Terry's death, um, it I it's pretty hard not to believe that's the case. Uh, they named a day after me. So like the community really was spectacular and and um that's beautiful. That has meant so much to me. So these these things that some people might think is is little, like maybe to them it was just like okay, a proclamation, and they make a make a plaque and you know have a presentation, and but it wasn't like a a big thing, um you know, a big to-do. Uh and it to them, maybe it was like not that difficult to do or that big a deal or whatever, but to me it was huge, it was such a cool thing, and I'm just so proud of that.

Matt 30:31

Yeah, so that was meaning, but well, like you like you said, like we can't no, no, you're good. Like, we can't, there's no um, we can't what if ourselves too long. Like, you know, I've mentioned many times on the podcast, like if my wife was alive, this this wouldn't exist. Like, we can't theoretically, well, what would I be doing? Usually it's a happier, better, great, wonderful life, but that there's no guarantee that. But like, I think touching on what you're saying earlier, who you have become because of the the arc of Terry, Terry dying, is wrapped up in that recognition of that day. Like, you don't know if you would have gotten a day, like, and that's not that you would have you you wanted that thing to happen, it's more about, and I love I've gotten this from someplace someone else, where they go, not that there's a reason for the thing to happen, but we can we can find and create a purpose for it. And uh, and I we're gonna get right back to some of the stuff you you're doing to to your purposing of your life for sure. So, Terry, I want to, I just had someone else on that their their wife also it was a big it was a heart attack though. Um, so she it was a brain aneurysm, sudden there's no symptoms, life support. Can you just go back to that moment of the organ donation? I think it's so powerful and it's so meaningful. He just no, okay, we we we moved back to that.

Kevin 31:46

I mean, I just think it's not gonna be. I I remember I was at a group meeting.

Matt 31:51

Yeah.

Kevin 31:51

And in this group meeting, there's this um, and I kind of knew I'm like, all these groups are gonna be old ladies and me, and this was a very good example of it. And um, because I was 38, and so there's there's a group of ladies, and um I wasn't too happy about well, I'll just I won't get too much into this, but I'll just say I was I was in the group in the sanctity of the group, I was a little bit um critical about um well actually let me put it another way. One of the ladies was super and and this group, remember, this group was brought together by the organ donation. Um yeah, so it's everyone there, their their spouses had uh donated organs. And one of the ladies she said that that was like the the biggest thing that was giving her comfort was that other people can okay, you know, live and other people can whatever. And and I I was like, okay, well, you know, fine, I'm not gonna say anything to whatever. It's but someone asked me about like the organ donation thing, and again, it is it is a group brought together by organ donors, and I was like, man, I don't know. I I don't and to be brutally honest, please, because I think that the readers, you know, it could be helpful because I at the time I was just like, uh, you know what, this this person that's been drinking themselves to death, I don't care if if Terry, who you know, yoga teacher, uh, ate organic, took a care of herself, and you know, he gets the benefit from it or she, whatever. Um, yeah, but I just was like, I didn't feel comfort from that, from her, and plus the experience was was not good. And I don't I don't I don't think it's really uh I don't know, I don't really want to get into that too much, but it was just I had a tough time with it. Um, and you know, maybe you even edit this out because like I I think for a lot of people that the comfort that their um that their loved ones uh organs can help other people can be really great. Um, but I uh so when I tried to gently say I'm not getting comfort from it, this lady like leaned into me, like railed me, like, what are you talking about? I was like, man, lady, shut the fuck up. Just get back off. I can't tell you, I mean, this is how I feel. What the hell?

Matt 34:18

Yeah.

Kevin 34:19

So um uh I don't know. I bet but um this was at the time, right? And I do of course feel and there was this there's a story that I I listened to, it was like it was like a Taoist uh Buddhist um uh like um podcast, I think.

Matt 34:41

Yeah.

Kevin 34:42

And um the the guy was just talking about a story of uh what it was like his horse ran away and everyone says, Oh, that's terrible luck, and he says, Maybe. Have you heard this one?

Matt 34:53

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 34:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the horse comes back with other horses and everyone says, Hey, what luck? And he says, Maybe. And then um his son was riding one of the wild horses to try to break them, and he falls off and breaks his leg. And and all the town people are like, Oh, what terrible luck? He said, Maybe. And then um the military came around recruiting people and they went to recruit his son, but he had a broken leg, so he couldn't go. And then um all the townspeople said, What luck? And he said, Maybe. It's like, I don't know, you know, I it it I I'm not gonna try to read into why everything happens.

Matt 35:28

Yeah.

Kevin 35:28

Um, you know, I used to think, and I still like everything happens for a reason. And like I felt like very much this was Terry's time. Like I really, really felt that, and I think it really helped me a lot too. Like, no matter how she died or whatever the situation around it, it was like there this was her time to go. Um, and uh yeah, man, she so my my personal story, like I feel like she man, she was such a big deal. Like I was um I was in some ways I was I was just uh can I curse? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. I don't know. Like um and you know, you you you spoke about how your mom came and helped you, and my my parents, um, my mom uh she she she just passed a year ago, but she suffered from schizophrenia. Oh and like a pretty severe case. Um she was hospitalized quite a bit when I was growing up. Uh yeah, like suicide was always prevalent. Um, we didn't have locks on any doors because you know who knows when we're gonna have to knock it in and and get mom or whatever. Yeah. So that yeah, that was and and and I'm not sure if how much was there a correlation with when I had such a tough time in high school and I was just I had very little uh I don't know if respect for myself, but like I I I wasn't um I was reckless, I guess. Um and golf golf helped me um get away from that a little bit, but I think my wife was huge in that.

Matt 37:15

Yeah.

Kevin 37:16

Um huge, huge, huge. Um yeah, like definitely like uh like a uh a boat without a sail type thing. You know, I was just kind of floating around and banging into stuff, and and you know, and she uh she gave me a sail or and wind and everything in between. Like she so you know, navigation.

Matt 37:39

Yeah, what I have found amazing um when I taught when when we have when I had when I have these conversations, is so many of us guys, how they just how we describe, and I know not everyone's relationships are all positive, which none of them are, but like but for the most but the most of them, what I'm finding because this was me as well, like one of my wife's biggest concerns was she didn't want to nag, right? She's like, I don't I don't have to nag you. I said, let me tell you this, sure, right? Because I love you, and you are making me a version of myself that you see me to become that I that I always wanted to be, but I couldn't figure it out. And it's it is amazing with not only how they lived with us, and I and I mean that literally and figuratively, but then post post them being alive, the how the the the lasting impacts of them just kind of I love you being our sale, being our guidance, where you you know what we could say, like you know, whoa, what would what would Terry do? What would Marcy do, right? And half the time the answer is like she would probably make me pick up the living room. Um she would be real mad about the unfolded laundry on my bed right now. But so I'll go forward as soon as we're done here. But man, what I mean, so and and so she so it sounds like, and just we'll wrap it up with this. Uh I mean we'll wrap up this part of the the conversation with sure. Well no, that that your partnership with Terry, both while she was alive and after she she has passed, has definitely put a rudder on your on your restless boat that you yeah you were. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 39:12

Rudder, a sail, wind, stars, navigation. Oh, I love that compass. Yeah, man, definitely. I had a lot of I had a lot of leaks in that boat too.

Matt 39:21

She was a busy lady, she was busy.

Kevin 39:24

Holy shit. She was a fucking saint. Um she also like another, you know what? I'm sure you guys talk about quite a bit. And I'm sorry, I I haven't actually listened to your podcast.

Matt 39:39

Um you're fine, man.

Kevin 39:40

No, no offense. Um take it. But uh uh she was so the secondary losses, yeah. Right, you guys are beautiful, yeah. I'm sure you talk about secondary losses, right?

Matt 39:53

Yeah, open it up, yeah.

Kevin 39:54

So yeah, so secondary one of the things that I didn't I didn't realize is she was like my connection to human beings outside of the house or outside of my family. She was the she was the social network. Every she had a special way where everyone would like love her and right away and tell them like I don't know, whatever secrets or something. Like here's a funny, funny story. Um there was we were out at brunch with a friend, and um there were a bunch of people that we didn't know there as well. So it was a pretty good sized group, maybe like 15 or so. And I don't know, maybe we knew like three or four of them. And one of the people in the group said that I'll just call her Sarah, I can't remember, but this was a while ago, but um they said Sarah's coming and you know she just lost her job and she just got divorced. So, you know, stay away from those topics because um, you know, it it it it's sore subject. So um within 10 seconds of of Sarah sitting down, Terry's like, I heard you got divorced and you lost your job. You know, like how do you feel about that, or something like that? Because Terry was just so genuine and and and wanting to help. And this lady, after like later on, she thanked Terry so much because of how people were trying to avoid it all the time, or you know, she wanted to talk about it, and you know, it was like the subject that you don't want to like talk about, and so she was so appreciative, and but oh man, that was like a perfect example of Terry. Perfect example.

Matt 41:38

I I can already tell from just the from your meeting in Florida to the to the little bit you've already shared. I think it's fair to assume that Terry was very authentic, which is what I found extremely powerful about my wife. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 41:51

I saw an old email about when we first met. Um and it wasn't it wasn't because I was going through her old email, one of her friends sent it to me. So it was, yeah, so you know, it was I think her name, um, I'm pretty sure it was Heather. And she said, I thought you this might brighten your day. It was oh shit.

Matt 42:11

Sorry. Oh sorry, sorry.

Kevin 42:14

Yeah, so um she said she forwarded me the email, and it was an email that um when Terry and I had met, and uh she was describing me to her friend. Oh and she was talking about how authentic I was. And uh I think that's in part why we hit it off because it was like we didn't have much filters, uh, you know, and in some ways that can be it can cause problems or challenging or something, but uh I don't know. And it was so that was pretty cute because you know, whenever I would introduce proudly introduced uh Terry to my friends, um, you know, they'd be like, Man, she's just like she is what it is. Like it's just there's not there, you don't have to worry, she's not worrying about saying something that she thinks you want to hear or whatever bullshit. It was like stop playing that game, yeah. Just being genuine, honest, caring, and um yeah, man. So uh yeah, that's beautiful.

Matt 43:20

That's beautiful. I I uh we just passed what would have been our 10th wedding anniversary, and I and I made the conscious choice to go back and watch our wedding video. And man, hearing hearing my my wife's voice describe why she decided to show up to our wedding. I'm like, right? Oh my god, she's like, he's this, he's that, and her family kind of chiming in, right? And I'm like, he like, you know, he calmed her down because she was very type A and showed her like it's okay to relax a little. And I'm just I'm balling my eyes. It's so man, sometimes I and this is I think what and I think it's so amazing that so many of us guys um that are in this. On this, you know, the get into widowhoodness that we reflect back and we see, like, holy cow, they we we love them in a way through actions of wanting to be. I keep coming back to it, being a version of ourselves that we always wanted to be, but we had no idea how to get there. We're like, I know I'm capable of being a better version of me, but I've tried it on my own. I tried it dating, I tried it with this person, it didn't work. I was like, I was running around, whatever, list and all of a sudden they show up, and you're like, Oh, yeah, this makes sense now. I totally get why I want to do this again.

Kevin 44:32

I was such a fuck, I don't even know if I even thought of that. I was like, I don't care. Like, or maybe you didn't maybe like this. I'm like, Oh yeah, whatever.

Matt 44:46

Hey, that's that's you being authentically you. I love it. That's it.

Kevin 44:50

So in the wedding, though, um, just to kind of speak, I I can end it on this if you have more questions about how we met and stuff, but yeah, in the wedding, the MC had us play like the wedding game. Okay.

Matt 45:03

You know, oh yeah, yeah, like the old newly like the newlywed game. The newlywed game, whatever.

Kevin 45:07

It's like, did you know your spouse or something? And so we sat back to back, and and uh I held one of her shoes, and she held one of mine, and she said, uh, and so it was kind of like, all right, uh, what do you think? Blah blah blah. Do you think this? And then if you think this, raise the the the the guy's shoe, you know, raise Kevin's shoe. Or you're like if this is the answer, raise Terry's shoe. And and they said beforehand, like, okay, you sure about getting married, yada ha ha, and all this. We didn't get one fucking thing wrong. But I'll tell you that no, I'll take it back. We got one thing wrong, ready for this? Yeah, but the way the MC phrased the question, okay. I knew Terry didn't wouldn't understand it. I was like, no, she's gonna say the wrong thing. I was like, no, you you you you asked it really fucked up, like it's gonna confuse her. I know she and so we and I was thinking that in my head, and we both raised the the the the opposite shoe, sure, and and I was like, She didn't understand what you were saying.

Matt 46:10

I know her so well that your triple negative question is gonna confuse my wife. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is great.

Kevin 46:18

She's like, How can you answer that way? I'm like, what he meant was this, and she's like, What you meant it this way? I'm like, Yeah, and like, oh uh, so you know, I I in retrospect it would have been cute for me to say, like, can you rephrase the question again, please?

Matt 46:33

Please, so so she understands. I love that.

Kevin 46:35

That is well, I wouldn't say it that way, right? So that she can understand it. No, no, yes, say it so she can understand it. Yeah, and you know, uh, sorry, I'm you know what? I'm just gonna keep these stories this it's funny because a lot of the stuff I haven't thought about or talked about in a while. There was a story I came across where it was a photo of a photographer who did wet weddings. Okay. Okay, and she was writing an article about her experience and how she can tell if uh uh a couple is gonna last or not.

Matt 47:12

Oh, interesting. From her perspective, is taking all these pictures at weddings. Okay, cool.

Kevin 47:15

Yeah, all right, yes. And she said one of the things is, and it was one of the mean main things, is they never want to take photos apart. So, in other words, like, oh, girls only, that wouldn't be a thing. Because she always included me for everything. So hey, they're taking pictures, come over here. It's you know, and for and maybe it was like, you know, whatever the the the the the wedding, the the um yeah, the bridal party or whatever. But like just in general, any any photos, it was like it we did everything together. Yeah, together. Um, I would go to her work, she'd come to mind like it and a lot though. It was like she was incorporated, she was uh we were both a part of each other's work quite a bit. We were together all the time, like all the freaking time. But I think in part of that was just because I was so needy.

Matt 48:05

So obviously she didn't mind, she liked it. It was no problem. She was like, I see this, I see this listless leaking boat. Let me help it out.

Kevin 48:14

Maybe, but you know, there might she might need a break too, you know. So uh no, we we did we did do some stuff apart, of course, but um uh but our our lives were so intertwined. Like, because really uh there wasn't anything that was like off limits uh to either one of us, really. You know, I mean she could have a girls' weekend or something like that, but just in general, um we were our lives were just so intertwined, it was just like package deal, you know.

Matt 48:41

Yeah. Then a so anything else about the story of of you and you and Terry that you want to share with us?

Kevin 48:51

Any other story about me and Terry? Yeah, because you know, but I think they're gonna pop up. I've noticed that in you know, in conversations, I'm like, oh yeah, that reminds me of a story. I've I've curved it a little bit, um, you know, because things will come up and make oh my my wife used to say that all the time, or you know, whatever. Yeah, and uh um yeah, let's see. Okay, so I'm a golf pro and I I make my money teaching golf.

Matt 49:19

Yep.

Kevin 49:20

And um so one of the things that I do is I'll describe something maybe 20 different ways. And it's the thing that kind of resonates the most with you, uh, even though they can all you you should they should all like make sense, but there might be something that resonates the most with you. And um, so I would describe things ad nauseum, and in a relationship that might not be the best. So that was one of the things, you know, you'd be like, she's like, I got it already. I'm like, yeah, but you could get it better.

Matt 49:53

But I have I have 10 more ways to explain it to you.

Kevin 49:55

I yeah, I I got all this in the in the in the brain. I want to see what's you know what's gonna resonate the most, but I wouldn't say it that way. But like it was just a habit that I had, of course. It was just you know, so I don't know. That was just uh like a cute thing that uh um um made me made me think of her.

Matt 50:12

Yeah, I got it already. I got it. She would have been the easiest golf lesson ever. You would have just had her tell her to her once, she would have gotten it.

Kevin 50:20

Yeah, well, no, no, no, no, no. Not when he came to golf. She wasn't a golfer. That's okay.

Matt 50:28

That's all right. We gotta have our own thing.

Kevin 50:29

Not when he comes to golf. Something else.

Matt 50:31

Yeah. So tell me, so along comes along your again, similar path. So along comes this little man named Tommy. Um he was he uh one. Um you and he's almost just turned 10. Yeah. Um, you mentioned right at the beginning, like he had some enough nights, which I find very similar in parallel with what my daughter goes through um when she has big grief moments because she was 13 months when her mom died. And of her 13 months of being with her mom, eight of them, her mom was like a cancer patient. So it was very it was a different, right? Yeah, so it's a different yeah, it's so it is what it is. Um, what and I want to kind of get it, I want to make sure we get to this point too. So you mentioned groups, one that was maybe not so great. Uh, some books, you probably did kind of stuff like I did where I was.

Kevin 51:21

So the group in general had a lot of there was a lot of value in that group, yeah. Just that one situation.

Matt 51:25

One, sure, yeah. Groups, um, books, and then let's get to the Wim Hof stuff. So is there was there any books off the top of your head that come to mind right now? Um, was there anything early in grief that really helped you? I know you mentioned you guys did you did some therapy, but he was so young he probably couldn't, just like mine. But you guys have been in therapy. So just touch on that and then bring us to what we'll get to the Wimho the Wim Hof stuff, uh, right, as you kind of go through that.

Kevin 51:55

I threw everything I threw everything at it. Um, I was kind of like of the thought process that uh I just have to keep doing. I have to keep doing stuff and and and you know, whatever's gonna take is gonna take. Um trying to do anything I could. But as as the the groups and counseling and books and all that stuff was good, but for me it was really nature. Um, I remember my boss is funny because he just actually called. Um, I declined his call, but he he's a big outdoorsman and he goes down the Rio Grande uh almost every year. And it's and it really is like a pretty extreme um nature experience. The river's not we we don't typically um do scary stuff on the river, not not rel not too scary, but the the scary part is if something happens, you're in the middle of nowhere. There's no fence needed to be built there. Right. Like it is, yeah. I mean, every once in a while you see like a sleeping bag or something.

Matt 53:00

Um there's nothing around, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 53:02

Oh man. Like we would we were shoot we were shooting off flares as fun, like you just it didn't have to, you know, we didn't we didn't have to worry about anyone seeing it, and you know, um so uh so I went on a trip with him and I remember one of the things that I was thinking of when I was out there is that have you ever heard that people that have had near-death experiences like they they typically have like they're really well rounded, especially if it's like early on or something.

Matt 53:31

Yeah.

Kevin 53:31

You heard something like that? Yep.

Matt 53:33

Yeah.

Kevin 53:34

Okay. So I felt like, okay, I gotta get as near to death as possible.

Matt 53:40

Okay, that's one way to do it.

Kevin 53:42

Yeah, well, I mean, like I'm and I'm not uh I'm not um I'm not a thrill seeker typically too much. Like I'm like a little bit more of a nervous nilly, like especially at at work, it's kind of perfect, like you know, you got kids running around, like, oh, this could happen, this could happen, you gotta do you just you know, make sure that there's this safety thing here and this and this. And um, but in this uh trip, I kind of felt like all right, I'm gonna just try to get I don't know, closer to death, closer to my wife. I don't maybe it was like a year or two years after. It was pretty fresh. And um I remember climbing up this this canyon wall, and one of the guys in our our group was uh a rock climber, and I yell down from from pretty high up on the canyon wall. It's like Matt. And everyone in the group looks up because you can hear it again, it's canyon, and the campsite was down at the bottom, and they're like, What the fuck are you doing? Like, I don't know, man. I I think I'm gonna need some help. You know, so that was pretty close. And then I went to the I went to this cave, and there's there's uh mountain lion scat everywhere. And I went in with a knife. I'm like, all right, I remember this story of um it was Johnny Cash. And he like he was he went in, he crawled into this cave, and you know, he didn't expect to come out, or he wasn't planning on coming out, and and uh and that's kind of where he found God or something like that. So I'm like, all right, maybe God's in this this cave here, so fuck I'm going in with a knife, and uh and I'm again claustrophobic, right? So this was fucking scary.

Matt 55:22

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 55:24

And then I came out, and then the river was frozen in a lot of portions, it was colder than the than my my bosses ever experienced. And I went out. Oh man, yeah, not the whole thing, no, but I get you, yeah. But wow, there were sides, there were sides frozen, and and it was because we go in typically in December. So I want to say this was December. I've gone three times. This was this was my third. And I went into the river, and I remember like, I don't know, getting in my chest and like, no, fuck that. No, no, no, no, this is insane. No, like so. You know, I I can climb up a canyon wall, most gonna die. I can go into a cave most, I feel scared of shit.

Matt 56:06

Um, and the cold water right out.

Kevin 56:09

The cold water was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not snow. This is I'm gonna go. You've taken it too far. You've taken it too far. I'm gonna get sick, you know, I'm gonna catch a cold, uh you know, whatever. But but it was like these these big things that I was like, okay, do you know get close to death? And it was funny, the cold was like, oh god, this is insane. Too much. Um, you know, little did I know about in about three years, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually purposely go into cold water and it's gonna be like my thing. And trust me, this is like my thing now. Yeah, um, yeah.

Matt 56:42

I follow I followed your journey, man. I think it's fantastic. So your first your first cold plunge was in the Rio Grande inadvertently. And then between that and taking the you know, actually going through the the training stuff. Was there was there you said you and your wife did yoga. Do you it you you said you mentioned nature, like walk, do you meditate as well? Like what other things were helping you in those first like three to five years before you went. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 57:08

Okay, so so here was another thing I threw at it. Um, so that that camping trip was a thing. Um, the groups, groups are a thing. There was a group that had also um a spousal loss with with young children. Yeah, so that was helpful. They're a great group. My counselor's fantastic, she's she's wonderful. Um, but another thing that happened uh was that she, like I said, she was a yoga teacher. And so one of the studios she worked at reached out to me and asked me if I would like to go through their teacher training program.

Matt 57:38

Oh wow, okay.

Kevin 57:39

Yeah, so um I did. Uh so I became a yoga teacher. Um, and if it weren't for COVID, uh I had a weekly class I was teaching. Um yeah, so that was that was a really cool thing. Um, and so yeah, I was starting to understand the breath. We read a couple books on breath, and I understand and then the chanting and understood uh understood chakras and um oh not understood. We touched upon chakras and um uh yeah, the breath was a big thing that I took away from it. Um obviously the physical act uh exercise, but I was a little bit more about the spiritual, and we did a lot of meditating and chanting. Um and that that was so that was before my camping trip, actually, because I remember doing some stuff when I went camping. I'm pretty sure that was that was the yeah, and um, but so the I don't know, that was a really good thing. That was really helpful. Um yeah, but it I don't know, later on it turned out to be it's a nice like in the Wim Hof method, you have three pillars, like I said before, it's the cold exposure, it's the um mindset, uh, and it's the breath work. And it was like the experiences I was kind of getting a little bit after like I don't know, hours of meditation and chanting. I'm like, okay, this is nice, whatever. When I did the Wim Hof thing, it was like bang, holy fucking shit. This is it. Yeah, and it and it was like it was like right away. You know, I I went to yeah, I went to I went to the Netherlands um and and and I saw um I went to to a weekend with Wim and we went into an um ice bath, and I don't know, part of me was kind of not expecting to go into an ice bath. I don't know why.

Matt 59:30

Um but I don't just get a pamphlet and I'd go home.

Kevin 59:34

Yeah, let's do some breathing and whatever. But like, holy shit, we're going into an ice bath. Okay, I mean there's you know seven 70 of us, but um and I I don't know if you know if you but Wim uh how Wim really started the the the whole thing was the loss of his wife.

Matt 59:49

Yes, I've that interview have you I've seen that I've seen his interview on YouTube a couple of times, and oh boy, is it powerful?

Kevin 59:56

Yeah, so super. I mean, uh yeah, yeah, and and so my uh girlfriend's family lives close to Wim, and so that September, I'm like, I'm gonna go see Wim and stayed with them. Yeah, man, it was great. And I went into it, but the it wasn't the cold that like I when I first really set aside time and did the the breathing, and I really did the breathing, um, because I set aside like three hours, I'm like, who knows? I'm just gonna I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna find a space and no one's gonna bother me, and I'm gonna do the breathing. And it was like it was like finding, I don't know, man, it's like getting high for the first time, I guess, or something. I I mean they we they say like getting high on your own supply. It was like the greatest thing, and it was like such a release. And you know, I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm yelling. It was uh it was unbelievable. And you know, I'm like, oh, this is something I have at my disposal now. I can use this. And I mean, it's in 10 minutes, and you're just like, what just happens, you know, so totally floored. And then I went to him and and I tried a little bit of cold showers and stuff, but you know, I still like hated the cold. I maybe, maybe hate's a strong word, but I don't know, maybe not. Like I was really not, I was not a cold not a fan. Not a fan, not a fan. Yeah, and um, I mean, I don't know. Like, I when I was I like some cold sports and stuff, but uh just cold for the sake of being cold. Maybe there were some moments when I was younger. I remember my dad worked at a gas station. I'd go into the walk-in freezer, I'm like, this is kind of cool, uh, but not for long. Like, I don't know. Uh so yeah, I'm I'm you know, trying to think back. I'm like, was there any other exposure to cold? Uh, but I went to the ice bath, and but the thing that they they taught you a lot was understanding how these pillars intertwine with one another. And you know, stretching is a nice um uh it's a nice um complement to the to the pillars. Um, you know, it's like eating healthy might be great. It's great for life, whatever, but it's not the pillars that really kind of stick to these three pillars. Um yeah, and uh so there's a lot of like they they call them copycats out there, and they might be talking about other things as well as the cold exposure and the breath work. Um, but the Wim Hof method is trying to uh keep it pretty, you know, like now they're talking about some um what's called when when when you're uh fasting, the intermittent fasting.

Matt 1:02:26

Yeah.

Kevin 1:02:27

You know, and a different type of fasting. Um, but it's still like the pillars are the pillars, um, and I don't think that's gonna change. Um yeah, sorry, I I get off track a little bit there, but um uh yeah, uh the yoga helped, the breath work helped.

Matt 1:02:44

You mentioned you mentioned some um breath work in the yoga and some chanting. Did you guys do guided meditations with the yoga as well? Not specifically, okay. I just had a real powerful experience early in my grief with a it was a yoga session that ended with a guided meditation. It was it was like this bolt of lightning that just hit in the middle of this, you know, you're you're breathing slow, you're relaxing, and the the the yogi, I think, is how it goes. Uh starting.

Kevin 1:03:14

Well, yogi is just someone who practices, yeah.

Matt 1:03:16

So but he practice he practices leading, yeah. The person who's leading, I guess I should say. Um, but the guided meditation partner, it was something else. And when you said the breath and stuff, so I was like, Well, I wonder if that was connected, but if you didn't, that's okay.

Kevin 1:03:28

Um what well, what where you're where you're kind of connecting with the breath, and so you're really going to the science with the Wim Hof stuff.

Matt 1:03:35

Okay.

Kevin 1:03:35

So it's like uh tapping into the the the the um parasympathetic nervous system, the rest and digest, and then uh what's um the the playing the and so the Wim Hof method, it could take me a while to to really kind of keep that's a that's probably a whole nother podcast to be honest. But the um and there's a lot of information out there, so like easily to find, you know, easily found. You can you can yeah, you can definitely, and and and even through me, like I have programs and stuff too. Yep. Um, but it's it's the play with the CO2 and the oxygen levels and the hypoxia, and um, you're you're putting your body in a very stressful situation. Um, and when your body's in a stressful situation, uh, we call it um hormetic stress. It's like exercise is a form of hormetic stress. You're putting your your muscles under stress so they become stronger, more resilient, more flexible, whatever. Same thing like say stretching or something like that. And so you're you're putting your your your blood, your system in a in a uh stressful situation, and it it comes back stronger to really kind of give you a very basic, not really diving too much into it. And you know, I don't know, there'll probably be some comments like well blah blah.

Matt 1:04:48

That's okay. We're we that we we can handle them.

Kevin 1:04:51

Yeah, yeah. No, the the the I feel like the Wim Hof method gets attacked. Um, and there's a saying in Dutch, the tallest trees get the the most wind, and and so I think it's part of that.

Matt 1:05:04

I so I think um correlate or or connect when you said, wow, this is it, as part of like we'll call it like you had you had grief with Wim Hof. What did because you said it was like all of this was happening at once, like when you set aside and you said like within 10 minutes of breathing, all these things were happening when you're doing the Wim Hof stuff. Was that grief was part of it grief related?

Kevin 1:05:31

Was it a body related holds emotions and different parts of your brain hold emotions? That's in part why you can feel like you're stuck and it's like start breaking that stuff. Um so it's just like it's not specific that I'm you know thinking a Terry or something like that.

Matt 1:05:57

It's just right, you know what?

Kevin 1:06:00

It it's like my being able to find stillness and in that space um I could start thinking more clear and finding I don't know, resolutions to things or whatever. I don't know. I mean it like purpose is a weird one, but I mean ultimately this is one of my purposes now. No no question about it.

Matt 1:06:23

Yeah. Um yeah. So if someone would would it be so I want to kind of stay focused on grief and Wim Hof for a for just in for a moment. If do you think if someone was three days out and they'd never done Wim Hof, would it be like almost too much for them? Like so many emotions running around. Like I we both know grief has no timeline, but like yeah, or when would like when would you yeah, like when would you kind of introduce it to someone that's in our similar situation?

Kevin 1:06:54

That's it, yeah, right. And and I understand that part of this this podcast is to be help, especially to people early on, too. Yeah, um so breath work is going to be important, I think.

Matt 1:07:07

Well, and it well well, full full circle back to the psi, back to the side, all the way back.

Kevin 1:07:12

100% your body knows it's like if you're crying really deeply, you ready? It'll be you do this double breath. Well, that is the type of breath, and what you're doing is you're tapping, and I don't know if you if you've cried really hard where you're and you do that for three minutes, let's say, which would be a long time, but as you know, there are a lot of tears in there, and so you you do that, and then there's just like this calm, and it sounds like this and then yeah, right, and then there's like a sigh at the end. It's like your body knows what to do, it's it's fucking crazy, it knows what to do.

Matt 1:07:50

You just touched on something I've mentioned multiple times on this podcast, where we'll go in the first year. I was lucky enough to be in a community of a gym. This gym had guy workouts, I knew my journey. Um, and that we're in a cycle of heavy lifting, just happened after my wife died. And I'd lift really, really heavy, and I could barely get to the car fast enough, and I just ball and I'd do that type of crying you just talked about. And afterwards, I'd be like, Wow, why do I why do I feel better for being so sad? Yeah, I couldn't hold on to it anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so so when would like if if I I don't think this is a hypothetical, I'm gonna say this is more of an if or more of a when. When I reach out to form a widower's retreat, what would you want someone to like maybe have checked off to make sure that this wouldn't be too much um for them, or if they were gonna like reach out and Wim Hof coaching, there is no okay, all right.

Kevin 1:08:43

So but but all right, so caveat. All right, hold on. So I think that the most important thing, like when we do uh you know, Wim Hof uh weekend early on is is is it's a safe space and trust.

Matt 1:08:56

Okay.

Kevin 1:08:57

So when you feel very safe and you trust it's easier to let go and let those emotions come up. Um the Wim Hof breath, I think the basic fundamental Wim Hof breath, 30 breaths deep, 30 breaths in, 30 breaths out, hold on the exhale. Yeah, you'd be fine. Uh it wouldn't, it's not gonna hurt you. You can always, if you if you feel like it's too much, you just you go back to your regular breath.

Matt 1:09:22

I mean it this I I you've done yoga where someone's like, you can do this. I'm like, no, I can't give me the blocks. Like, I gotta go back to the star. I can't stretch that far. It's too much. Right, right, right, right. But same with the women, okay, beautiful. Because I didn't want I I guess a safe space, right? Trying to trying to help everybody out and give them, you know, tips, tricks, and what works and what what doesn't. But I would hate to have someone is like listen to it in month one and go, I did the Wim Hof and I had a I had to like you know lay in a corner for seven hours. It's like, oh crud, maybe. But this the introductory Wim Hof breathing is not gonna be too much for anybody. They'll it'll just like you said, give them a give them a like you feel after a really good cry that three minute lots of things.

Kevin 1:09:59

Yeah, but just just but realize, you know, I mean, as you know, if you're like lit literally three days out, right?

Matt 1:10:07

Everything's too much.

Kevin 1:10:08

Let's let's yeah, yeah, it's not it's not like hey, let's you know have a weekend. Right. It's yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's uh all right, I have to eat. So like I remember early on, it was like, okay, I can't, I can't think about eating, sleeping, drinking, whatever. I was like, okay, guys, can you just I'm just gonna just consume juices. I I'm I'm I I must have lost. I can't remember. I lost a tremendous amount of weight that first year. Like I was fucking rail. I couldn't eat. Just couldn't eat.

Matt 1:10:37

Yeah.

Kevin 1:10:38

I could not eat. And um, and then it was like, I don't know. And then I just and I never really had issues with weight, like ballooning a little bit because my work is so seasonal and my stress level is so different from say the middle of July to you know December or something like that. Because you know, my the my busy season can be insane. Um, and it's not a complaint, it's uh I've chosen this, it's great, but um still it's just decided. My weight started fluctuating later on in life, it would fluctuate a little bit, but this was insane. Like I went, I ballooned up. Uh I mean, I'm sorry, I lost. If I had to guess, I didn't weigh much to begin with. I was probably like 170 or something, and I I went down to like maybe 140. Like I didn't have much weight to yeah, yeah, and it was just because I couldn't eat. Yeah, I just couldn't eat, and then couldn't it's probably a little bit of an exaggeration. Obviously, I ate, but it was I couldn't enjoy food. I remember I remember eating early on at this restaurant that that uh is is great, and I I was like, I know this tastes good, but I cannot enjoy this. I remember being outside when it's hot out, and I'm like, I know it's over 100 degrees out, but I can't tell it's hot. Like I can tell, but I can't. Um yeah, it's like my senses are just fucked. It's just it's a crazy thing. Uh it's just like, I don't know, man. I can't worry about it being hot. I'm missing Terry right now.

Matt 1:11:57

Yeah, I can't, yeah.

Kevin 1:12:00

Early on, early on, man. Forget it. It early on was just like this. It you remember the you remember the fog? Yeah. Okay. So I believe that the fog is your body's way of protecting you. It's too much, there's just no way. It's like too much contrast, it's going from a thousand degrees to zero degrees. It's just too much contrast too fast.

Matt 1:12:18

Yeah.

Kevin 1:12:18

So your body says, okay, shut up. It's kind of like you go through a really traumatic thing, like I don't know, a crazy car accident or something, and and you you pass out, not from injury, but just because like you your body has to go off. Yeah, you've got to shut off. Yep. So um I told people all the time.

Matt 1:12:36

Yeah, I tell people all the time. I said, Listen, if you go on Facebook or Google Photos or wherever you keep your digital memories, and in the first year it said we went to Ubid Stand for Thanksgiving, I'd been like, Yeah, sure, I can't remember. It's just my brain was recording nothing. It's totally a grief frog, it's a real thing.

Kevin 1:12:51

Yeah, that fog is wild. It is so it feels like literally fog. It's like you you it's like you walk out and it's like there's I mean, you wake up, fuck it, it's just all the time. Inside, outside, there is a physical fog, and I am 100% feel it, see it, uh all my senses acknowledge it. That's why like food, nope, heat, temperature, whatever. Nope. Like it was because everything was in this fog. All my senses were in this fog.

Matt 1:13:18

It's like, you know, how when your arm falls asleep, and then it's that point where you're like, like, right? Like, like I know my arm's there. I can move it, but I if I bang it, I don't feel I know that should hurt, but I don't I don't feel it any right until yeah, yeah. It's that's a yeah, grief log's a real, real thing.

Kevin 1:13:34

Um yeah, that's I because that that makes me think of something, yeah, and I I love this because it was like, I don't know, the day after the day uh sec to second day after Terry died. Um, that morning I wake up and I'm just breathing. And it's deep and it's guttural, and it's just and I'm just breathing. And my whole body went asleep, including my eyeballs. Yeah, wow. But it's actually what that feeling I I think um because in Wim Hof, you you get that you get that feeling what as well. Um and uh God, it's been a while since I've actually I can't remember exactly if it's the the ions, but it it it happens, and it happened to me that that early on. And it reminded me when I did my first Wim Hof breath of that that uh sensation, um, yeah, ringing in your ears and totally feeling like your whole body's asleep, and your body's gone through quite a bit.

Matt 1:14:30

Yeah. Yeah, there's I mean, the fact that it takes this long for someone to have written a book about the grieving brain based on neuroscience and all the stuff that any of us who've gone who are and grieving and been through grief go like, oh, so I'm not crazy. It's like, yeah, no, that's that's it's science, it's literal. This is why it's also why your brain can take us from present tense to past tense in a moment, right?

Kevin 1:14:54

Well, you have different parts of your brain. Yeah, that's in part like when you're in the ice bath, that stuff they've shown this in science and in brain scans. That those parts of the brain shut down.

Matt 1:15:05

Really?

Kevin 1:15:06

So you stay more present. Yeah, you're you're well, you're in you're in white or flight mode, and then you're like trying to stay alive, and that that's in part how you can find stillness because you're not thinking about the future, you're not thinking about the past. I mean, then you start to being able to exercise it where you can, but it's in like a it's in a better, it's in a better space. It's like it's it's not tied to anxiety for the future or um depression because of the past. It's it's I don't know, at least for me. Um, but I think it's pretty common too with other people. It's not it's not just me.

Matt 1:15:36

Yeah, it's almost sounds like once you've done it enough, it's almost a tool you have in your tool belt that's now it was done in a controlled environment and you can now control the environment which you get your mind set.

Kevin 1:15:49

It's like um huh, you know how the if if if let's say you're you're nervous or scared to be a public speaker, which is uh I think relatable, a lot of people understand that fear of of public speaking. So, and that was me. And so if I had a speech or something, my palms would sweat, my mouth would get dry. You know, these are things that happen to your body, this physiology. Well, it's because your body, it's not experiencing that, it's thinking about it. So it is actually experiencing it, right? So it's like even though you're not doing it, it's ahead of time. Let's say it's 10 minutes before, your body's experiencing it. So, like, you know, that's a part with the value of going into an ice bath and then coming out. You've experienced the process of going in and coming out. So um you're exercising that part of the brain. One of the things that happened to me early on was it this we call it cross-adaptation. Like, if you're you're knowingly going into something difficult, just like if you were public speaking, if you did that for 10 years and you did it three times a week or something, it becomes easier. And uh because you've exercised that part of your brain. So um, doing difficult things has become easier for me. If it's a difficult conversation, um or I don't know, whatever, or difficult tasks, task, yeah, yeah. It it seems easier, it feels easier. So to me, that's as real as can be, it is easier. Yeah, um, yeah. But uh that was one of the that was one of the early things about the Wim Hof method to me. I was like, oh wow, things can be easier. That's that's a that's nice.

Matt 1:17:26

Well, it goes back to again full circle of none of this is permanent, right? So this isn't gonna last forever. Um, things can get easier and easier subjective, but right, like things, yeah, this too shall pass, things will get hard again, but that will pass, and I I can do hard things how you can deal with it becomes can become easier, and this was a very scientifically backed way to um address something that's difficult, you know.

Kevin 1:17:51

Because like there's a part of your brain that fires when something's difficult, and you knowingly go into it. It's not about like you know, just shows up, you're choosing, yeah, yeah.

Matt 1:18:00

You're choosing a difficult thing.

Kevin 1:18:01

You're choosing the difficult thing, you go through it.

Matt 1:18:03

Yeah, how did you stumble into Wim Hof?

Kevin 1:18:06

Man, to be to be honest, I can't remember exactly. That's okay. Um, I just I can give you a little bit of a like I like sports, I like so I used to watch like World's Strongest Man, or you know, I like I I like Lance Armstrong, the cycling. I'm I I do I do triathlon and and so I I like the extreme stuff, it's cool. And so I think he was just on my radar from forever ago.

Matt 1:18:28

Yeah, he's just I yeah, I've I've I've known of I've known of the Iceman for a long time, and then like he popped up as Wim Hof, and then I'm sure grief and the algorithm fed me his how he got into it when he lost his partner. And I was like, Oh, this guy's like he's a thing and he's a real thing, and he's not just yeah, and that's okay. I just wasn't sure if it was like I was you know, I I well found a brochure.

Kevin 1:18:49

Even though he was on my radar, yeah, it wasn't wouldn't say that I found wim. You know, the funny thing is, um, I was I was driving back from the sound today, um, the Long Island Sound for for you non-New Yorkers. Yeah, it's gonna like yeah, the sound, yeah, the Long Island Sound. And um uh it was a great day. Uh it was like minus six Celsius this morning or minus eight. It was cold this morning. I was I was surprised it it was that cold. And um I was out there since from eight to twelve thirty, I think. And um, so it was a long time. I was really doing my thing today. I was also doing a bunch of work on my phone and stuff, but I was all in shorts. Um, and so I I go in the ocean, it was a good day. And I have to say, like, I feel like every day I'm like, man, that was the best. And every day I'm like, man, that was the best. Every freaking day, I feel like that. But anyhow, I'm coming back, I'm driving back, and there was someone had a vanity license plate and it said W-H-I-M Wim. And it was just before our our talk, and it was like, ah, I'm gonna be spreading the word of whim today. This is and it did not to sound like weird. One of the cool things about well, the whole guru thing. That's I think that's part in part why some people might be a little bit um uh nervous about the the whole Wim Hof method. When I first went out to see him, I was very much a reluctant, like, okay, is this gonna be some type of weird guru-y type thing? And I my first impression was this guy is as solid and as real and as down to earth as I've ever felt from a human, it just seems cool. And one of the things he said, which I love and I still love to this day, is he said, I'm not your guru. Um, the cold is gonna be your best teacher. There's something along those lines, you know, I'm paraphrasing obviously. Yeah, and it's so true because I in in some ways, like I'd mentioned before, when I go into the cold, it's like I can find stillness, and when I'm finding stillness, it's like I feel like I'm finding myself, and I don't even realize it. I didn't realize it, but you know, three years of doing it, and you start like, Oh, yeah, this is definitely I don't know, I get these obrices and stuff.

Matt 1:20:54

Man, it sounds I I I think um, yeah, I don't think I know you're gonna get a couple emails from me in the future for sure, uh, about this because you said you said a key word that is is been weighing on my heart and on my soul and on my human for our ever-growing group of solo dads. Isn't that a weird thing about being stuck? About like I just have this feeling that there's there's and everyone's little journey to become unstuck is gonna be a little bit different, but I'm starting to find some things where it's like they actively participate. I'm stealing someone else's quote from another podcast I did in the hard thing of grieving, which is what you're talking about, choosing to go into the cold blunge, right? Choosing to have that hard cry, right? Choosing to carve out time where where I think too many times, yeah, I think too many times guys, whether it's they're just too busy. Sure.

Kevin 1:21:46

I see where you're going with this. Yeah, that they they're being being the tough the tough guy, yeah.

Matt 1:21:52

The tough guy, yeah, and the doing and the like the feeding the kid and the running the schedules, and as a solo parent, you forget that like I kind of look at me and I go, I don't know if you had this, but like I'm I'm coming up on eight, and I look back and I go, eight, how the f has it been eight fucking eight? Shouldn't I have I lost more weight and been a better putter by now? Like I got eight years. Like, what's going on? You know what I mean? Like eight years, like I don't feel as stuck, but there's definitely parts of my life I feel stuck in that um I think we'll I think we may have a follow-up conversation about it about hope, um, at a different time, so we can talk about where you are now in your in your personal life. But um Right. I know we've we've stretched on and this is really good. Um so I love this. Um I usually I end with like uh like five of the same questions. So we will definitely post all the links to the Wim Hof stuff on the show notes. I will make sure I share his YouTube story or his interview about how he came to this because I almost forgot until you mentioned it. I mean I didn't, but that he is a widower. Um and so I think that's super important, a part of his journey too, on on how he wanted to get through his grief. And now I believe that I know it's not just for grief, but I think that there is a powerful connection there. And like you said, the universe is giving all these little you know, nudges or whatever that there's a vanity plate, and we're having this conversation. And there's definitely something here because there's some other things I'm working on that I really want to be able to deliver to guys that are grieving. Um, because I just I keep coming back to the never ending story with the horse stuck in the mud. And I'm like, we don't need to be stuck, guys. Like, we can we can do this, we can we can get the horse out of the mud of the swamp of infinite sadness. Um so what is there? I think I think we're good with that, and then I'll end with my little questions, and then uh I think we'll do a part two with you down the road about some other stuff because I think there's some good chairs. That sounds good. All right. So my last couple of questions I like to end on the season five. Um, and I've been doing these for a little bit, but um Oh, am I the CD finale? No, no, no, no, you're smackdown middle. No, I said season five just kicked off. No, no, no, no. Oh, I've been doing on season five as I've been recording these. Um, I let the universe know I was interested in more people, and the universe uh kicked me right in the I was like, whoa, this is great. Yeah, um, and you and I have been connected for a while, man. And I like I I'll end with what I want to say, but so let's do we'll do the questions real quick. So the first one I ask is if you could go back to that first three, six months, I think you've already kind of said it, but if you can travel back and put your hand on your own shoulder, what would you tell yourself?

Kevin 1:24:25

Okay, so obviously, kind of knowing me a little bit, I wouldn't tell myself everything because I wouldn't have changed a thing. Beautiful, right? So so I will say that because I look, I'll also say this. I am I feel more powerful, strong, healthy, uh healthy, happy, uh, spiritually, mentally, physically, and I everything has the is the best I've ever I have and there's not even a close question. I am the best version of myself today than I've ever been my entire life, like hands down. No question about it. Um, this is my perspective, this is how I feel. Um, and I'm not saying that that wouldn't be the case if Terry hadn't died. It'd be different. You know what I mean? It would be different, of course. But uh my best guess in that parallel universe, if if Terry hadn't died, yeah, I don't think I would have been, you know, going into the ocean and every day. I just I don't I don't think that would have happened, of course. I mean you can use your own common sense there, but sure um, but that being said, then that that would kind of also speak to the whole like what if and who could have I could have done or whatever and uh should have shoulda coulda woulda's. Um I don't have any of that. I really don't. Um okay. So that being said, I will I will speak to the question, the the the the the heart of the question, I think, because um for value to other people. All right, so early on, what I would what I would have said to myself is I would have been encouraging, you know, so be gentle on yourself. Um I would have said that you are stronger than you ever can imagine. And you know, like life is awesome, man. And you know, so you you were you lived in this this uh all right, I'm gonna put on the camera for this. A little sweaty, I'm in the sauna, hold on. So you live in here.

Matt 1:26:23

Yeah.

Kevin 1:26:24

Okay. And now you like so yeah, yeah, to you know, for to experience the the the the highs, if you uh man, if you if your lows get lower, in a way it feels like your highs can get higher.

Matt 1:26:41

Yeah.

Kevin 1:26:42

You know, I um so yeah. Sorry, let me I guess from my perspective, from my experience, for me to speak to to others um going through um uh a loss. Um and it could be like mine's sudden, it could be like yours sick, it could be um, and it doesn't have to be necessarily a spouse, but uh no, no, no, because you go through losses and all sorts of different losses. Um the whim off magnet, actually.

Matt 1:27:19

All right, I'll no, no, sorry, that's totally fine.

Kevin 1:27:22

I didn't know what I was gonna say. I didn't know what I was gonna say. You landed it. But it's like, yeah, oh my goodness. It yeah, breathe. Your body knows it knows what to do. You're not the first to experience this, you're not gonna be the last. And and it's and and and you know, somewhere in your genetic code, great, great, great, great, great grandparents, they probably experienced something pretty darn hard. And you know, everyone experienced something hard as well. So it's you got that as well. But um, yeah, it's like you're it's in your DNA.

Matt 1:27:51

Yeah.

Kevin 1:27:51

It's in your DNA, it's it's built in your genetic code that that you're gonna be able to deal with stuff, but you know, it could it it it May need some support.

Matt 1:28:01

Yeah.

Kevin 1:28:01

So early on for me, and this goes to the advice, yeah, take care of yourself. Uh because everything's so tied together physically, you know, maybe eat a little bit better. You and you can make decisions, you know, like, okay, having a drink uh or or two or three or four or five or more, uh, maybe won't be in your best interest. Um, so make those good decisions and there's this snowball effect that can happen.

Matt 1:28:29

Yep.

Kevin 1:28:30

Step by step, little by little, incremental changes. And that's another thing about the Wim Hoff method is like these incremental changes. Like, what, three years ago I just went into a cold shower. I was like, oh yeah.

Matt 1:28:40

And now you're jumping in, you're jumping in the ocean.

Kevin 1:28:42

I I I can't tell, like, I can't even begin to explain how it's like I'm jumping in, but I'm staying in. Yeah. And then afterwards, I'm warming myself up and it's less than um uh it's below 32. I I go in Celsius a lot because um so much time in Europe and temperatures. So you know, I'm a negative, I'm warming myself up in negative temperatures, yeah. It's just soaking wet, you know. It's and today was uh a little tough. So I did uh um but I I warmed myself up for like maybe 45 minutes or an hour, and then then I did get clothed and I was still pretty cold.

Matt 1:29:16

It was it was a tough one, but uh but you did it, you did the hard thing by choice. I do like and I do like to give yourself grace, treat yourself a little better. And there's there's a big thing about do the next small right thing, and you'll be surprised. And I love the DNA thing because yeah, this isn't the first time any of any of us, our ancestors, have had to do hard things or had loss, and it's in there. That is that's good, man. That's real good.

Kevin 1:29:40

It's in there, man. It's in there, and you know, when sometimes when I'm in the water, I think about that. I think about my relatives long lost, you know, like way that I don't even know about whatsoever. It's like, man, I'm doing this for you too. Like, we're connected, like uh not to get too weird, too spiritual, but that's I feel more connected to everything.

Matt 1:30:00

Wow.

Kevin 1:30:00

Yesterday, when I was in the water, these um jellyfish were surrounding me. And they were the type uh one of the types that light up. Wow. They light up, right? Yeah. The first one I saw was like the size of a like a gigantic grape. Okay. Um, and like a gigantic grape, like almost like a like a big, big lychee. Yeah, and um so I'm in there, like, oh, that's cool. And then I see one smaller, I'm like, that's cool. And they're all lit up and they have these two little, I don't know, legs or something uh attached, but they're really cool, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. And this the water was really clear and it was pretty calm. And then I'm in the water, so the water is you know up to my chin about. And then I notice holy cow, there are a bunch of them that are absolutely tiny. Wow, like tiny, tiny, and a ton of them. And they all light up. Wow. So I'm like, it's just a perfect example. I went, I remember, I think it was last year or the year before, these crazy things would happen to me when I'd go into the water. Like this eagle swooped down on me, thought I was a fish or something. What's this thing in the middle of the ocean? And in the middle of the lake, that was a lake uh in the dead of winter. And this bald eagle comes flying that must have been like 10 feet away from me, but by the time it you know realized, it's not a fish, you know, just a guy losing his mind.

Matt 1:31:20

Just another crazy, just another guy doing the whip hoff. These guys.

Kevin 1:31:24

That's it, that's it. And um, there was there was uh a ferret in the middle of the winter, a ferret. What is a ferret doing out here? And that made me think of Terry. Terry had a ferret when she was in college. Oh wow. Um, and uh, I don't know, man. The the geese coming by, all these animals, fish, uh, and um another time with the uh different jellyfish. And at the time I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna get stung. And I was like, wait a second, you know, it's just and there were so many of them around me, but I just I knew they weren't gonna hurt me. I don't I don't know. I just felt so connected to everything.

Matt 1:31:56

I think there's something that you can't you said, you said about doing it is that when you're doing the the the Winhoff method, you're I know you respect it with the golf thing, it's also like sports in general, not all things just about golf, but um when you're just present and you're not reacting or thinking of the future or worrying about the past, you just perform, you just are so like when you're in nature, like the probably the reason the animals are around you is because you're not you're not anything to them, you're just being present, you're not worried if they're gonna bite you, you're not walking, right? Like you're just there, yeah. That's it. And then when I'm not gonna be here, I won't be here, I won't be present anymore, I'll be someplace else. So I think there's there's there's something about because you hear that too, where I you've I'm sure you I've read stories too where people go, like, oh yeah, you know, not not they crawled in the cave saying they're gonna come out, but like they're like, I just knew like you see those people with like bears in Alaska, they're like, I just know they're not gonna hurt me, they're gonna eat me. Like, that's my um that's the bears. Especially it's a grizzly ass, right? Those things are huge, but so okay, so be kind. I and you know what's I I I say this all the time, and I think I need to I need to to recognize that, like you said, it's in us. What what what's one of the things everyone tells you? Like, take one small step, one small breath, take everything. We say it all the time, but we don't actually talk about what type of breath are we talking about, right? Like take it slow, breathe in, breathe out. Perfect opportunity, right? Yeah, I love one. I you know, when someone posts in my group and they're like, ah, you know, they're overwhelmed. I'm like, breathe. Like we I do, I'm sure you do this with your kid. When my kid gets all overwhelmed, I'm like, breathe, but sure. I don't know what that means. Now I will though. I'll start to learn. Um speaking of kids, I didn't mean to segue that way, but it's gonna work. If Tommy were to ever stumble onto this podcast, what would you want to tell Tommy?

Kevin 1:33:43

All right. So so um if I'm speaking to Tommy right now, yeah. Well, I mean, I tell him this stuff all the time. You know, I love him, and uh and you know, he's I'm glad that I said what I said because uh uh especially about the oh yeah, like that, you know, I was talking about the the people before me. You know, my my my parents, my grandparents, my great grandparents. Well, I obviously talk about Tommy as well. Yeah, like that was kind of just assumed, even though I didn't say it. It was of course. I mean, um, you know, he's uh yeah, he's a part of me and Terry. So it's like he's stronger than he could imagine. And I I believe that's the case for every human, but um, you know, that's what I I I wanted to hear all those messages as well. And you know, benefit from my experience. Yeah, because you don't want to you don't want to go through that, man.

Matt 1:34:39

Yeah. Especially go through without tools that we've we've acquired along this journey for sure.

Kevin 1:34:44

Yeah, yeah. But one of my um one of my friends uh was talking about um it was a friend of a friend. So it was this is a reference to the second hand story, but they were just talking about how um that when they were kids, they um well no, let me put it the other I'll put it a different way. So as an adult, um he's he's on uh medication um for like mental health stuff. And he um he said he's glad that they didn't put him on this stuff when he was younger because he had to deal with what he had to deal with, and he he got tools. Yeah. He figured out some tools and how to deal with stuff. So he said, if I didn't have that, I wouldn't have these tools. And and you know, like I told you a little bit about I didn't really go too much into it about my troubled youth. It was it was it was it was pretty troubled, but um, and I don't I don't really want that to be out there too much on the internet, but yeah, I was young, it was high school, college, whatever, just it was it was tough. I didn't I didn't um but I got tools for later on in life, you know, dealing with my mother's illness. I remember her one of her counselors talking to me, and it was I didn't talk to them much at all. It was just this one time, I'm like, nah, mom, I don't want to talk to any of your your your therapist or whatever. Like, I'm not not so you know, whatever. I just all the things, yeah, yeah. I'm young, yeah, all the things. So they they um they got me on the phone finally, and then and and and he said something to me that stuck with me ever since that small conversation. He said, you know, Kevin, you're you're a lot stronger than no, this experience is gonna make you a lot stronger.

Matt 1:36:31

Oh boy, yeah.

Kevin 1:36:33

And it was the experience of my mom being uh schizophrenic, um, you know, suffering from schizophrenia. So you're gonna be uh a lot stronger from this experience. So and it's funny, I was younger, I actually thought it meant physically, and like, oh muscles, yay, you know, and um but later on it's like yeah, those tools did help me when Terry died, and and yeah, yeah, golf is is one of the things that helped me. And and you know, speaking to your um being present and centered on that stuff, golf. Yeah, I hear it is a form of meditation, man. Yeah, if you if you're thinking about something else, good luck.

Matt 1:37:11

Good if you're thinking about anything, it's a right, like that's a whole nother podcast, man. We can we can we can between Wim Hof and golf, we could we could do we could be here for for hours. Um, I do you know it's interesting, like with our kiddos. I have I have two. I have one from a previous relationship. She's 22, so she's about ready to graduate college, and it's yeah, you see the I can give you some some hope, if you will. Um, all the things I try to instill in her on a daily basis when she's growing up, like, hey, like you know, you know, I promise you, if you stick this out, there's a reward on the backside, like you just gotta keep at it or delayed, right? This delayed reward. Yeah, you just gotta, or you gotta, you know, give a little more than you take. Like, just I'm probably I'm promising you, I know it's like that's a kid a lot, right? It seems weird as a kid, but adults are gonna recognize that you're like, Wow, this that you just you you pick up the sports equipment, you say please and thank you more, and then all of a sudden they're like, I don't know why, but I picked Samantha for this. And they're like, Because you're present, you're doing all this. So I I do, and but and part of it would always be that like, listen, as a kid, these are some things I had to learn the hard way, and I would just prefer you're gonna have your own hard lessons. Life's not gonna be easy for anybody. But if I can give you just a couple of nuggets so you don't have to learn that hard lesson, like here's an idea do not max out your first credit card. Pro tip when you're eight, 19, do not do that. That was that was bad. Do do it later, don't do that. Um, so I love that. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna credit them, sure. Oh, that's a whole rate. Um, and so like, yeah, I just passing along, like not that we suffered, but like there are certain life lessons that we definitely want to give, give the tools that we got from a benefit of that lesson to our kids, which I think is a good thing. Um second to last one, if if if if Terry could tell you something today over the eight years you've been through stuff, what do you think she would tell you? What would she tell me? What would she say to you?

Kevin 1:39:09

Oh, I think she'd be really proud.

Matt 1:39:11

Yeah. I think she'd be really proud. I find again going back to how they are a rudder, our sailor, North Star, all that stuff. I and I think it's important that guys hear this because I think they forget that goddamn, we've been through a lot. And holy shit, look at what you're doing now. You're fancy. You just said you're the you know, you're this version of yourself that you've you know, everything's just not that your life is perfect, but everything is feeling great. You're feeling great mentally, emotionally, spiritually, uh physically, right? Like and we forget, like, I think our some of our people would remind us, like you just said that like I Marcy's not gonna be proud about the unfolded laundry, but I can tell you she's gonna be super proud of how Blair's functioning in the world, how I'm functioning in the world, right? Like they're really proud of how far we've got to be. Yeah, and and we're giving, we're giving back, you know, yeah.

Kevin 1:40:01

Like you're doing this, you know, and and I'm doing this.

Matt 1:40:03

It's it's it's uh Yeah, I think it's super powerful. If you could say one thing to Terry, what would you want to say to her? I talk to her all the time. What's something you tell her sometimes? But you can share on the podcast.

Kevin 1:40:18

I'm thankful. Oh, it's thankful. Yeah, I'm sure and the gratitude that I have just in general is is a whole nother topic.

Matt 1:40:25

I love gratitude.

Kevin 1:40:26

Holy cow, it's off the charts, man. It's off the charts. What the the gratitude I feel, it's for it, and it's just yeah. Um so meeting her and um yeah, and and the experiences that I've had, being able to feel more. Um and uh yeah, her mother-in-law is still really closely in uh uh involved in our lives. Um it's great. Yeah, she's great. Um and my counselor said, you know, most people don't call them their mother-in-law anymore. I'm like, oh all right, well, I didn't know that.

Matt 1:41:04

I didn't know I didn't know what else to call mine. Like, I'm like, I mean, my wife's family's huge. So like I have two father-in-laws, a mother-in-law, and a brother-in-law and a sister-in-law who are both married. And so I've only, and I'm like, ex? I'm like, previous? Yeah, yeah, yeah. None of that sounds right. So they're just in-laws. I mean, they're my chosen family too. I love them, they're great. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin 1:41:26

Well, Terry, I mean, Terry's only relative that I really is her mom. She they had a small family, so um, yeah. I um she's fantastic. She's amazing, she's amazing. She's an amazing woman. So uh, yeah, but uh I guess what and I'll I'll do this a little bit more often and I'll say to Tommy's grandmother.

Matt 1:41:50

Yeah.

Kevin 1:41:51

Say Tommy's grandmother. I'll love it. Because then you'll people be like, uh, that's you know, like Melissa's moment, right? No, no, it's just it's my and then I have to get into it a little bit.

Matt 1:42:00

Yeah, it's it's well for us that understand it, we are like, yeah, whatever. But for anyone who has a normal life, they're like, I don't understand. We're like, trust me, it just works. Don't don't question it. It's yeah, I say that I'll say that too, but then it gets confusing because she has two grandpas who have the same first name. So then they're like, which one? I'm like, you know what? It's too hard to explain. We're just gonna call him grandpa. Um, Kevin man, I am so glad we got to connect. I'm sorry that we have to be connected, but man, I if you don't, if yeah, if you don't mind, I would really like to read actually. It's funny you said gratitude. Um, I'm working on something for trying to get people unstuck, and part of it is gratitude. Um, and I would I would love to we could talk about that too as well. I really appreciate you trusting me to have hold the space for you, even and spoiler alert, everyone's gonna find this out at the end, so they gotta listen all the way through. He was in a sauna the whole time.

Kevin 1:42:48

Hey, yeah, incremental incremental changes, man. So the you know, the being grateful, being grateful, little things, little grateful. And oh, yeah, this is all about like moving energies and stuff. So toxic is out, and yeah, I love it, man. Kind of like my little quiet space, so I figured it'd be a good spot to talk. I thought it was gonna be Zoom, I thought it was gonna be just a telephone call.

Matt 1:43:08

So we're good. So hey man, I really do. I think um I I'm I'll tell you some stuff after we finish recording, but um, really, thank you so much. I'm always so it's just it's always I want it's like so many other times you teach something, right? Or you hold space for I wind up learning way more about stuff than I thought possible. And I also usually walk away going, like, either I have something confirmed or have something new where I'm like, this could be really helpful. Where the gratitude one is it was huge for me in my first couple of years, huge a gratitude.

Kevin 1:43:38

Um it totally changes the the perspective.

Matt 1:43:40

It does. And I don't want to get into I again. We I think we will do another one. Like I can tell from your vibe. We'll talk about Kevin is has done a lot of work to become unstuck, and he also projects unstuckness. Like you're not, um you have your hard days, you have your hard moments, but you're not you're not wallowing, you're not you know, throwing your hands up every six seconds going, why me? Like you you've you you're figuring and have figured out what works for you and how you can move forward, which I think is super important. So I'll end with this. Uh, if if this has helped anyone at the end of this conversation, give us a like, give us a follow. Uh, and we appreciate everybody listening. Kevin, thank you so very, very much, sir. I appreciate your time.

Kevin 1:44:23

Matt, pleasure, okay.